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Strewing math around the house: beyond numbers and shapes

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This is a topic I would like to discuss. Anyone in the course can open discussion topics. Judging by the most young kid resources, as well as questions people submitted, we are in dire need of expanding our math repertoire beyond counting. Let's face it, counting just isn't all that interesting or complex. When a baby or a young kid is learning about all the animals, and stories, and planets, and games in the world, mathematics you offer needs to be at least as engaging.

Let us make a collection together, so we can grow some "math eyes" for noticing ideas beyond counting and shapes! So:

  • Propose a math idea or five you like
  • Explain what objects, toys, games, art, activities will make the idea alive in a child's daily environment

I will start with one of my favorite ideas of early math: SYMBOL
Symbols are everywhere and in everything. Once we gather a few examples of symbols, we can notice them all around and invite kids to play.

  • Symbol dress-up. Pick up some symbolic clothes, such as hats - a baseball hat, a witch hat from Halloween, a winter fur hat. Or maybe shoes: snickers, ballet slippers, house slippers, high hill dress shoes. Then make up your own symbols for characters such as "cat" or "robot" or "princess" or "dragon" and draw them on pieces of paper. Create your "costume" by attaching paper to yourself with tape, and also picking symbolic clothes. This way, you can be a "ballerina witch cat" if you put on ballet slippers, witch hat, and a paper with a symbol for "cat." Children can make up little skits about their newly created characters. They can change the characters by adding more symbols. For example, you can draw a symbol for "tiny" or "red" or "young" on paper and attach it to yourself in addition to whatever symbols you already had.
  • You can do symbol scavenger hunts or expeditions, especially in new interesting places like an airport or a doctor's office. You will notice some symbols resembling what they stand for, and others abstract. For pre-verbal kids, point out symbols of the same category on one trip, such as street signs or house numbers. Kids may start pointing them out, as well. Kids usually take well to smileys and enjoy "reading" them or making up their own.
  • If you have devices with touchscreens or buttons, babies can learn to recognize symbols on them. Many electronic toys have symbols on buttons. Just use the word "symbol" around these devices. A toddler or an older child may enjoy photographing all devices around the house that have particular symbols on them, such as the music player, the computer keyboard, and the oven all having + sign for different reasons.

A geeklet using a smiley symbol for "cat"

Megan Haggerty's picture
Megan Haggerty
Thu, 2011-01-27 08:40

Hi Maria, I hope this is correct, that I should be posting my idea/task of week 1 here. I have two:

ANGLES:
Learning the concepts of steep and gentle/gradual slopes - it's fun to take some books/cardboard, and compare the different slopes, and then race cars or balls down the slopes. And then to go to some hills in your area, and roll down the hills, and decide if they are steep or gradual.

FRACTIONS:
I only have one idea here and it's pretty plain - would love to hear more: When you're offering your child a fruit, e.g. an apple, asking if they want 1/2 an apple (a butterfly), or a 1/4 (a boat). And same thing for when asking them how much water/milk they want.

FOR SYMBOLS: Don't forget traffic lights (red, yellow, green).

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Thu, 2011-01-27 08:58

I like that idea for fractions - I'll definitely do that.

One question though, why do you refer to them as "boat" and "butterfly"? Wouldn't it be just as easy to learn "half" and "quarter" (that even has less characters)?

I'd imagine that a teacher in school might also get confused when their student asks for a "butterfly" during lunch, or am I missing something?

Thanks for your great tip.

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Thu, 2011-01-27 19:39

I love this idea....great job:)

Pam Barnhill's picture
Pam Barnhill
Thu, 2011-01-27 15:37

Maria,

I had not thought about symbol as a math concept. In fact, I don't get much past counting, adding, fractions, time, etc when I think about math concepts. Maybe add money and patterns to that list. Is there a good resource or list of early math concepts somewhere online that I could reference?

As for symbol, the first idea that came to my mind would be to create a series of cards of common symbols that the child sees (such as the woman and man symbol for bathroom, the arrow for play on electronic devices, a red light, a green light, etc). Then to make it interesting you could add some symbols that you and the child create together. These cards could be used to "write" and "read" symbol sentences or to play a game where mom writes a symbol sentence for the child to read and act out.

I also love the angles idea!

Such fun.

Pam

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Fri, 2011-01-28 13:51

Agreed, such fun! Pam, patterns is an EXCELLENT idea, and there is so much you can do with it.

In my opinion, the list of "early math concept" is no different than the list of general ed math concepts, really. However, the younger your kid, the harder it is (at the moment) to find activity descriptions and materials for topics such as functions, or even symmetry people are discussing here. That is, you can make a symmetrical shape out of paper with a toddler, but where is mathematics of symmetry in it?! I hope to start a catalog of activities, WITH math in them, as a result of this course.

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Fri, 2011-01-28 16:15

@Maria

You said: "but where is mathematics of symmetry in it?!"

The first thing that came to mind when I read that was Star Wars:

"Oh, I don't even know what I'm doing here! We're wasting our time! Yoda: [Looking away from Luke] I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience. ..." :)

Couldn't you argue "Where is the English in teaching children letters?!", "Where are the poems, haikus, paragraphs, sentences, subjects, predicates and such?". Why don't we just jump into conjugating verbs with toddlers?

The answer is simple, everything builds on something that came before it. You first need to recognize letters before you can make words, before you can make paragraphs, before you can make really horrible run on sentences that you can then post in an online form. ;)

The same concept applies to Mathematics. Before you can teach about Cantor sets, I'd suggest having a look at Sierpinski's carpet and for that you should know what a square is :)

Isn't there just as much math in the basics of learning shapes as there is math in discussing things like geometric series?

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Fri, 2011-01-28 16:24

Nevermind my last comment. (I think it was more or less extrapolated from the text in a way that was a bit out of context). I missed the latest thread and I see where you are going with this.

This is really a cool class. I can't wait to see what people come up with.

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Fri, 2011-01-28 16:33

<3 the Star Wars quote (and that was the love symbol, by the way... hehe)

"Isn't there just as much math in the basics of learning shapes as there is math in discussing things like geometric series?" Both topics can have a lot of math - or, I would like to note, none at all. Several people here mentioned a very common problem. They don't see math in objects or activities where other people see loads of it!

Moreover, when a group discusses an activity, I am always amazed how much MORE math different people discover than I originally noticed. You can notice more or less of it in the same activity, obviously.

Let us help one another grow and develop our "math eyes" :-)

There are also more shallow and more deep levels of noticing, as Yoda says. We can have our kids develop deeper noticing skills! For example, yesterday my math club was searching for math in an origami crane one of the kids brought for the purpose. Here are some levels of math depth kids developed:
- It has two wings
- It is symmetrical
- It is close to symmetrical - a quality approximation (noticing fine, precise differences)

- It is three dimensional
- So are all other "show and tell" things; all objects are 3d! (generalization)

What I love in your message, Mick: you do NOT need fancy or advanced topics to go deep into math. There is depth in every topic.

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Thu, 2011-01-27 16:57

Opposites It's fun to think about big and small, up and down, and lots of kids' books mention these things. Our favorite was The Opposites, by Monique Felix. (I see that it's available at Amazon.)

Patterns I thought of nested dolls, and am calling it a pattern - something the same except smaller, but maybe it could be called self-repetition. It also makes me think about infinity. We used to have some lovely nested boxes, but my son rarely played with those. The nested Russian dolls have gotten lots of play over the years.

Symmetry If you play with paints, folding a wet painted picture in half can be really fun. We didn't do this, but I think I remember it from my own (very long ago) childhood.

Spirals I guess that's a shape, but it's not the kind that gets included in young kids' books. And my son's preschool did a great unit on it, looking at springs, drawing spirals, and talking about the galaxy!

Catherine Crawley's picture
Catherine Crawley
Thu, 2011-01-27 17:06

These are interesting ideas. We do some of this at home with my 4-year-old daughter Hannah -- the symmetry one w/ paint and drawing spirals. I guess I am having a hard time understanding why these activities are math related. How do these sorts of activities prime the brain for math?

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Thu, 2011-01-27 18:26

Symmetry (or spirals) by themselves are fun, and educational, but they aren't math. When a butterfly is flapping it wings symmetrically or a fern grows its leaf in a spiral, they aren't doing math at all. So, the questions are:
- What is math?
- Where is math?
- How do we get there?

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Thu, 2011-01-27 20:51

I respectfully disagree with you.

A spiral *is* math. one famous example: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Golden_spiral
This goes into Fibonacci sequences/numbers and φ.

Geometry (Ancient Greek: γεωμετρία; geo- "earth", -metri "measurement") "Earth-measuring" is a branch of mathematics concerned with questions of shape, size, relative position of figures, and the properties of space. :)

Symmetry also has a lot to do w/ math: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Symmetry_in_mathematics

As for the fern example: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fractal#In_nature

The trick is to make the kids see the math in those things.

- Mick

Catherine Crawley's picture
Catherine Crawley
Thu, 2011-01-27 21:07

@Mick "The trick is to make the kids see the math in those things."

Indeed! And that's why I'm here and asking....

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Thu, 2011-01-27 22:54

Well, can you define the parameters of your question? It seems a bit open ended.

If we start of with a discussion of spirals, and what the math is behind them:
- I personally will show my son Archimedean spirals first
(https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Archimedean_spiral) while doing this I'll explain who Archimedes (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Archimedes) was and why he was so awesome :) -- If a boy isn't interested in a heat ray and how a mirror can destroy a ship... then I just don't know anything anymore :)

Another issue is that we have idolatry of musicians and pop stars instead of the people that really should be idolized and respected. It is important (to me) to not just teach the math and science, but the people that shaped those fields and what they went through and how they came to the conclusions that they did. (e.g. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cavendish_experiment)- and possibly recreate those experiments when my son is older.

I miss the Deutsch Mark: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/DEU-10m-anv.jpg...

I'll cut this off before I start to rant. :)

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Fri, 2011-01-28 13:43

Thank you for the links. I am going to jump on the bandwagon and add a recent favorite - Vi Hart's "Doodling with math" about spirals: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhlv5Aeuo_k

I think the topic of "math or not math" merits its own thread by now. Starting a new one!

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Fri, 2011-01-28 15:08

I just marked http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart as a bookmark.

Very cool.

Thanks a lot for the link.

kirsten shields's picture
kirsten shields
Wed, 2011-02-02 06:09

My head is spinning...... :)

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Fri, 2011-01-28 06:00

Not giving you the dictionary version and just taking a guess math is logic, value and expression. Math is everywhere, in all that we do. We get there by being here with you the other members.

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Fri, 2011-01-28 14:44

Excellent working definition. Agreed that logic, value and expression can be used absolutely everywhere. I started a topic where people can post activities; let us see how we can invite kids to work with these three features of math in different contexts.

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Thu, 2011-01-27 19:46

On symmetry...my daughter and I did this last week. I didn't even realize we were doing math or symmetry. We did this project under our science day. We mixed paint and then she did the symmetry artwork, wow I love this, thanks.

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Fri, 2011-01-28 05:21

Kenede, can you tell a bit more about this artwork? As for symmetry - I think building pretty much anything with non-interlocking (non-Lego-like) blocks would lead to discovering symmetry. Also, mosaics (we use large glass beads and pebbles and mirrors). Also, sometimes you can find the flip books where a child has to flip through the pages and match top half of a picture with a bottom half. These are really easy and cheap to make.

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Fri, 2011-01-28 05:54

We used two sheets of plain white art paper. I folded one sheet in half and the other in half, twice. She opened the paper and poured the paint kind of in the middle, but she's 21 months, so it was close lol. We refolded the paper, she pressed down a little and when we opened it she had two pictures that were symmetrical. For us this was science, but I'm glad to be opened to learning something everyday. As I read the comments, I remembered that here in DC symmetry is on the "state" test under math. They normally use a triangle and some weird block looking object and the question normally asks which object is symmetrical.

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Fri, 2011-01-28 05:15

Yes, spirals are somewhat underrepresented :) However, it seems that it'd be one of the easier shapes for young children to draw. We started by looking at pictures of spiral galaxies. Then my son started drawing and painting spirals (for a while that was the only thing he painted - either a spiral galaxy or stars spiraling into a black hole). Now we look for spirals everywhere - on walks, in stores, in books, on weather maps in newspapers.

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Thu, 2011-01-27 17:56

Anything we think deeply about (through art, for instance) leaves its mark, and makes later work with related concepts easier. I'm teaching Calc II this semester, and we're finding the area between two curves. To do this, we evaluate an expression at the endpoints. But if the shape is the same on both sides of the y-axis, we can just look at the positive side (the arithmetic is much easier) and double our answer. Symmetry helps us make our work easier.

I don't know if this will make any sense to people who haven't dealt with calculus...

Figuring out what's the same in different things is a very valuable skill for math. You could play games with that sort of idea, too.

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Thu, 2011-01-27 20:06

I sadly dont have much to comment about on this topic. I never really thought about "symbols" outside of shapes and already listed items such as the stop sign and traffic light. I am very interested in learning how to incorporate symbols into math or math into symbols .

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Wed, 2011-02-02 06:49

I just thought about this - blocks! Blocks seem to be perfect toys for learning math. Kids build all sorts of structures with blocks, but they also use blocks as symbols - a triangular block is a roof, a cylinder is a rocket, a yellow cube - Wall-E, etc, etc.

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Wed, 2011-02-02 06:56

We played a pattern game today - my son used a toy dump truck to bring me various odds and ends (sea shells, small blocks, glass marbles). I'd tell him how many to bring by saying "I need 5 small shells" or "I need as many pink stones as I have blue marbles here" (in this case we made sure to compare that we had exactly the same number). Then I'd build a pattern or a sequence, but leave it unfinished and ask my son to place the last piece or two where he thought it would fit the best. He seemed to like the game (I loved it, lol) although he got tired of it after about 10 minutes.

kenede herbert's picture
kenede herbert
Wed, 2011-02-02 07:08

Sounds like a lot of fun :). I will try this with Marley and on 10 minutes, that is great for him and his spongy young brain eager to learn and suck up everything in his environment.

sara kabil's picture
sara kabil
Mon, 2011-02-07 08:14

Hi everyone :)
I know we are looking for activities beyond numbers but I thought I'd share with you a number activity that I've been doing with my daughter on a daily basis (and that she now asks for it everyday so I reckon she must enjoy it!).
I wrote out the numbers 1-30 on several sheets of paper and stuck them horizontally across the wall beside her bed. My initial objective was to get her to recognise and work with numbers beyond 10. Since then we have found many activities to do with the numbers on the wall. Sometimes I pretend I'm the monster standing on a certain number and that she has to quickly add 3 to get away from me, so she jumps 3 places and tells me what number she's on.
Other days we compare how numbers 11-19 vs numbers 21-30 look.
We've now started to look at different combinations of making the same number, for example I will take the number 6 and she will show me which two numbers can give us that answer.
I know this is all probably common aspects of math but I am happy that she is starting to visualise the numbers and understand their true value.
Any ideas on how to extend this activity would be much appreciated :)

kristina smith's picture
kristina smith
Mon, 2011-02-07 13:42

Wow, fascinating. How old is your daughter?

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Mon, 2011-02-07 15:06

What a sweet game! My favorite part is how extendable it is. You can keep playing, literally, for years.

Here is an extension. I hope others will add more!

Make a separate place beside her bed for venturing into the second dimension. Use squares of paper and write two numbers on them, color-coded, for coordinates of that square. You can play your own version of battleship, or all the games you play with your number line, but now with the number plane. Just agree on how you name pairs - by color, or horizontal always first, or give them roleplay names.

When you introduce something new, ask your daughter for input on where to put it, what colors to choose and so on.

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Mon, 2011-02-07 23:14

That is a really cool idea. I'd also like to know how old your daughter is.

btw: this really goes to show that you can have fun with kids just by simply writing on a piece of paper. :)

sara kabil's picture
sara kabil
Tue, 2011-02-08 07:19

Thanks guys for your feedback :)
My daughter is 4 but she is not very interested in math (although I feel she is quick to pick up concepts). I want her to appreciate it but also have fun. I also find myself rather inconsistent with teaching her concepts so having these numbers up on the wall is really helping us to do something everyday and to have a visual reminder of numbers and their order regularly (I guess this fits in with the strewing math around the house element of the course, and from this experience I want to put more things up on the wall because I have felt that its made such a tremendous impact!)

Maria thanks for your extension, I am not familiar with battleship, can you explain briefly how it is played?

Thanks!

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Tue, 2011-02-08 09:23

The game is a popular game in the US (and in Europe). It is over 100 years old and it started as a paper and pencil game that was later turned into a board game by a Milton Bradley (afaik, the author never saw a cent from his invention).

About the game: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Battleship_%28game%29
The rules: http://www.ehow.com/about_5367693_rules-battleship.html

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Tue, 2011-02-08 17:04

I don't like the military theme of Battleships, and would like to design a similar game with a friendlier theme. My friends tried out my first version of Hide and Seek. They decided that, unlike Battleships, a person is 'found' when you first 'touch' them. Makes sense. Paul, the dad in this family, is a product designer, so we had a great conversation about how to produce the game. (I wanted pretty molded plastic, like Rush Hour. He wanted the more environmentally friendly, and much cheaper, alternative of cardboard. Thanks for bringing me to my senses, Paul.)

If you're using pencil and paper, you hide some kids on a 7x7 grid, with Home at center, and space to hide up to 3 paces in each direction (ESWN). Kids are drawn covering 2, 3, or 4 grid points in a row (1 toddler, 2 little kids, and 2 big kids). In Battleships you take turns firing shots. (It can get a little confusing, remembering which grid to mark info on.) In Hide and Seek, you play a whole round with one person's team hiding and the other person looking, and then switch. Winner is the one who finds the opposing team in the least moves.

Anyone want to try it out? I'm open to suggestions for alterations.

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Tue, 2011-02-08 19:59

very cool idea. I'll see if I can think of some ideas to add to that.

sara kabil's picture
sara kabil
Wed, 2011-02-09 08:01

Thanks Mick for the links :)
Sue I love the idea! Would it be possible to upload a quick sketch of the game, would love to give it a try.

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Wed, 2011-02-09 09:07

Just print out two of these:

Then let each player draw in the "ships". Then start guessing the coordinates on the plane (kind of like bingo if you think about it).

In the example on the right on that image "G4" was a hit so it is marked with an "X". G5 was a miss so you put one slash in there.

It is a mixture of guessing and strategy. The person to sink all of the ships wins.

I was thinking of a few variations which would have a better theme:
- each player should draw something using some number of squares and the game ends when someone guesses what the opponent drew (perhaps before all of the fields are found)

I can't believe how long a "little sketch" took, but here it goes:

Another idea would be to play battleship with one large "worm" (instead of ships) which the other player would need to guess the "head and tail" (whatever the beginning+end square's coordinates would be).

Here is a challenge: I'd like for the parents/educators to use this basic principle (of a paper and pen w/ grid system) and show their kid(s) an example then have the kids make their own game and then have them play against one another. For the educators, they could have the kids vote on what they think the best game is.

I've seen kids get together in teams having been tasked with finding an optimal solution for rearranging desks, and then have teams come together and vote as to what the best solution was. It was very cool seeing them work together and come up with great solutions using geometry (they didn't know that). I'm sure the same ideas apply here.

I bet you it is a lot of fun and it will get the kids thinking for sure.

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Thu, 2011-02-10 16:26

Paul made a sketch of it and gave it to me, but I don't think I can find that right now. I just made a quick sketch, now I'll see if putting it in a google doc let's me include it here...

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Thu, 2011-02-10 16:27

Nope... I used embed code and I don't see it. So here's the link...
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1M2TWd-U-niLyJwNyy-WRmG-SBXJl2tA...

Sue VanHattum's picture
Sue VanHattum
Thu, 2011-02-10 16:33

I'll use the creative commons copyright. I don't want some big company stealing it, like MB (I believe) to to the guy who came up with the original battleships game (according to Wikipedia).

Here's how the game you see in the sketch has gone:
Sue hid her team.
Maria tried "1 East 2 North"
Sue: Miss.
Maria: 2 South.
Sue: Found my first little kid.

Perhaps Sue would remove this kid from the board and hand it to Maria at this point.

You could name your 5 kids, which I think would make it more fun.
I think we'll use some sort of magnetic pieces (like refrigerator magnets) when we actually produce it.

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Thu, 2011-02-17 06:14

I tried something new with my son today which worked out well. I put him on a billiard table and then we played with the balls on the table for a while. Once he had familiarized himself with them, then I rolled them to him and he put them in a pocket and counted (by himself- I didn't say anything). It was really interesting seeing how he handled certain situations (like when the pocket was full and he went to another pocket and started to count from the beginning). Seems like a really neat game to play that works on: motor skills- hand/eye coordination, "order" (what goes where), and of course counting.

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Thu, 2011-02-17 15:38

Neat, Mick! Thanks for the story! Did you take any pictures?

The billiard triangle is a good intro to triangular numbers - a topic kids love. The triangle provides an iconic 15 (balls) and the table provides an iconic 6 (holes).

Yelena, below, talks about noticing angles. A fun activity to do is dip a ball into paint and then roll it on paper in some confined space. With a math club, we did it in a narrow corridor covered with paper. You can also do it in a bathtub or a large flat box or on a covered billiard. When a ball bounces reflects off walls, you can see the equal angles forming!

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Thu, 2011-02-17 06:27

Mick's story reminded me of a simple game we played a few days ago. It was basically just all about rolling ping-pong balls. We set it up in a hallway (I closed all the doors except for the one into Mark's room). He sat in his doorway and rolled the balls so that they'd hit the baseboards. I'd try to catch them and then we'd switch. The interesting part was observing how Mark was figuring out the angles. After a few tries he figured out a way to send the ball across the hallway in such a way that it'd bounce against the back wall and roll right back to Mark. I wish we had a pool table though!

Kelli Brandon's picture
Kelli Brandon
Sun, 2011-02-20 03:00

Here's a simple counting practice we do nearly daily with my 4 year old son. Each night we go through his "task chart" (did he help someone, did he do well with please/thankyou's, etc). He gets up to 6 magnets per day on his chart, which we count after we figure out how many he got.
Then, the next morning, I will give him "gold" coins (Chuck E Cheese coins) for each magnet. He will count and if he has 10 (previous days' coins plus today's) he gets a treat. He has to figure out if he has 10, if he doesn't "How many do you need?" (we are still working on that). If he has 10, we count them out together. If he has 10+, we count, and put the remainder in his jar for tomorrow.
Simple, easy, math.

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Sun, 2011-02-20 19:08

Kelli, what an interesting system! Thank you for bringing up the idea - and your implementation, which works for very young kids. You basically designed your own game, with points! Those of us with older kids know that card games (such as Pokemon) that feature complicated point systems are great motivators for math.

Check out someone's software for turning household chores into a fun game - I call it "World of Chorecraft": http://www.chorewars.com/ "Finally, you can claim experience points for housework!"

Today's "Daily Good" newsletter featured a classroom teacher who had a reward chest for kids helping one another significantly, with small symbolic gifts in it.

I think the key to such games is to keep them open and fun, avoiding heavy-handed manipulation. The stress should be on play, not on material rewards. Has anyone else designed such games?

Kelli Brandon's picture
Kelli Brandon
Sun, 2011-02-20 02:57

Oops, duplicate post, deleting...

Mick Weiss's picture
Mick Weiss
Tue, 2011-02-22 16:38

One thing that I'm not sure about is- is it really a good idea to reward children with something (like fake currency that they can use to buy things)? I've been contemplating this for a while. Wouldn't children always assume that they will be rewarded for good behavior? What happens when they realize that there are not always rewards for doing a good thing? Would they merely stop all together? "Why should I do ____ if I'm not going to see a reward out of it?". I've seen behavior like that before with children- it seemed like a real backlash coming from a reward based system, how do you prevent something like that from happening? I think that once my son is in school that I might just take him out for something special with him at the end of the week if he got good "grades" in school (I think they give out gold stars or something like that for the younger children). This doesn't address issues at home and the finer details or what he did or did not do. Has anyone employed a system like this and their children are now older (like 8-9) or has anyone tried the opposite (of not giving out rewards and just treating it as "normal behavior")? Has it worked for you?

Megan Haggerty's picture
Megan Haggerty
Wed, 2011-02-23 01:00

I can't reply with my own experience as a parent (she's still a young baby!), but my parents used a mix of the above, Mick, and it seems to have worked with all 6 of us. We would get rewards for some extra special things we had to work for - that we really wanted. But we never got rewards for good grades, as those were more of a normal expectation - instead, we got praise (which is something similar to a reward, but internal) - yet we never got scolded for bad grades. The question always was "well, did you try your best?" and if we did, then that was fine.

One thing that I'm glad my parents did is give us an allowance when our chores were done. And help us set goals of what we wanted to do with it - the help was in helping us to figure out how much more money we needed, how many more weeks that would take, what percentage that was of the total effort, and if we decided to buy a can of coke (or when we were even younger, when we bought 5 cent candies) how much that would set us back. we used to think in terms of percentages and time...and it is really how I learned how to calculate those things (and now, how I can resist a decadent coffee everyday and instead save up for a vacation). Hope that helps!

Yelena McManaman's picture
Yelena McManaman
Wed, 2011-02-23 01:47

Mick, I understand and share your uneasiness over rewarding kids for doing what's expected of them. I tried a chore system for my son a while ago and I absolutely hated how it worked out. He basically had to do 5 things every day (brush teeth, pick up toys before bed, do his eye exercises, etc). We would mark a chart with a stamp every time he completed a task. At the end of the day, if he had all 5 stamps, we'd put a BIG stamp at the bottom of the chart for that day. Do this for 5 days and you get a reward, usually ice-cream. But we had just the results you're describing - Mark wanted to do something strictly because of the reward, etc. So we gave up on a chart.
Then I read a great post on Childhood101.com blog about chore charts, etc. Very thoughtful (I just can't find a link to it). Here are some lessons I learned from it:

1. Make tasks very specific, but keep the number of tasks manageable (5 daily was simply too much at the time)
2. Instead of a reward at the end of the week, have a smaller reward, but sooner, say every other day. As the child gets older, the time between rewards can increase.
3. The reward has to be related to the task. For example, for us it'd be do eye exercises every day for two days and you get an extra story time on Day 3 (or extra 10 mins of his favorite cartoon).

Another one that I am trying to do now is to not offer food rewards (whether a treat for completing some tasks or a dessert if he eats his veggies).

I grew up without chore charts or rewards tied to chores (or grades). Nor did I get any allowance (didn't help with my money-management skills later on, lol). I think I learned mostly from observing my parents and how they did all their chores out of intrinsic sense of duty and responsibility.

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Wed, 2011-02-23 02:29

I gave the issue a lot of thought, and developed a list of heuristics for using rewards. I would like to share them.

1 - Never reward with items the person can't obtain for themselves. Rewards should not remind of your power (economic or decision-making) over the kid. So: no money rewards for kids until they are financially independent.
2 - Humans have a strong need to track progress and growth. Rewards work great for marking achievements. They do NOT work without visible progress tracking. Rewards should come only in the context of task management and project tracking systems that will help accomplish the tasks.
3 - Rewards should mark achievements, not BECOME achievements. The reward should never become a goal in its own right. For example, a learner should be MORE rewarded by being able to progress to the next level of math (intrinsic achievement) than by the parents' promise to buy a bike if a test is passed. You don't wont the kids to "just work for the salary" after all.
4 - Kids need to learn to set up their own task management, the earlier the better. This includes deciding on, discussing, managing self-rewards. Setting up the task and reward system has to be an open and consensual process so kids start to take over it by the time they are 7-8, and can largely do it all by themselves by 10-12 (ages vary). So, kids need to be decision-makers about rewards.

The overall principle is to set up kids to be leaders and managers of reward systems, and not powerless cogs in reward mechanisms set by others. There are too many entities in this world who will take advantage of the person trained to respond to rewards, rather than design them. However, families where obedience, rather than leadership, is a strong value will need a different approach to rewards than what is described above.

kirsten shields's picture
kirsten shields
Wed, 2011-02-23 07:22

I am so excited! I feel like I have something to contribute, albeit a small victory! (That said, sorry I haven't been more involved, but I have been enjoying some of the interaction in this class!)

In addition to using some of the suggestions mentioned here, we are still working on counting. On Sunday, Hailey (2) rattled off "One, two, three" on her own, without repeating after me. It hasn't happened since, but it was a victory at the time.

Fast forward to today. H is no longer in a crib, but a toddler bed, so she can leave when she is finished napping or sleeping. She usually comes to the door, knocks and calls for mama or daddy. Sometimes we will stand on the other side and knock back on the door.

I heard her stirring from her nap and knew that the knocking was soon to follow. When I heard her shuffle her feet to the door, I began knocking before she did. Tap, tap tap. Then I heard her tap back, three times. I thought, "huh," and tapped four times. She did the same. And the same with five, and back to three.

So yeah, some of it had to do with rhythm, but I do think that she is beginning to count, in her head! YAY!

Maria Droujkova's picture
Maria Droujkova
Wed, 2011-02-23 13:08

Kirsten, how exciting! With a baby a few months old, you can play such rhythm games by gently guiding baby's hands. For example, mama can clap three times, then take the baby's hands in hers and clap baby's hands. Or bang on something, or bounce a bit, or use a piano. It takes a while for the baby to get the hang of the game, but then they follow along and help with their hands.