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Joe Corneli's journal

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I read the http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Charles_Jeffrey_Danoff/Collaborative... lecture (which I was also lucky to see in person!).  I'm thinking about ways to apply these ideas (1) in future versions of PlanetMath; (2) right now in the DIY Math course I'm facilitating with p2pu.

For (1), I think it will be necessary to have "narrative pathways" that can be filled with elements of the PlanetMath collection.  In other words, I think there are really two layers of content -- objects and pathways.  The objects would be things like definitions or exercises, and the pathways would take the reader/learner through a sequence of these with some goal(s) in mind.  PlanetMath currently doesn't have support for building pathways, and at present I only have a rather vague sense of what they would be like.  I think it would be nice to design the facility properly in this course, and supply some examples (even if they are only "mockups" and not full implementations yet).

For (2), the main challenge of the course is that everyone is ostensibly studying something different.  I think this is fine (that's how writers workshops work, for example) -- but I worry that it may have as a side-effect the problem that people will lose motivation or interest because they are so responsible for structuring things themselves.  In the language I introduced above, I'm asking everyone to find their own narrative/learning pathway.  Maybe that is too much to ask?  What kinds of skills can I teach that will help people create these pathways?

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Mon, 2010-09-20 23:57

Thanks for starting your journal, Joe.

For 1 I understand the idea of pathways and would be interested to see how you designed them in this course, at the mockup or final stage.

For 2 I don't think it's too much to ask of the students, but I think giving them more freedom will entail more work for you to keep everyone on track. To create the pathways for your students maybe it will help to model independent learning for them yourself? You seem to have done a lot of it in your career, maybe share what's worked for you?

Also, any thoughts on the class syllabus?

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Mon, 2010-09-27 00:52

I think you're right about the "more work to keep everyone on track". I'm thinking that maybe individual consultations would help. If people haven't completely lost interest already, that is! It certainly *would* have been a good thing to plan into the syllabus for sometime around week 1 or week 2.

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Mon, 2010-09-27 01:08

Looking at the current course another way: The activities I had in mind are for people to

"Tell us about something you learned."

or

"Tell us about something you're having difficulty with."

I wonder if it is possible to break those activities down into smaller steps?

I did introduce people to some of the *mathematics learning* techniques that have worked for me in the past, but I'm a little less clear on the techniques that have made it possible for me to speak up in various learning contexts. I've always assumed it was "just part of my personality". But, upon reflection, that seems like a pretty major blindspot!

But maybe I should just take advantage of this and post more to the group along those lines myself, rather than posting in the capacity of "cat-herder" and nudging people to do things.

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Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Tue, 2010-09-28 03:54

Illuminating the "techniques that have made it possible for me to speak up in various learning contexts" would be helpful, but I think the best step would be the "individual consultations" you mentioned in your previous post.

Perhaps as a way to organize yourself and the class, you can try posting lesson plans for your class?

Brylie Oxley's picture
Brylie Oxley
Mon, 2010-10-18 21:41

The practice of Agile software development has a practice similar to what you describe. Collaborators have daily and weekly 'scrums' where they check in and explain what they are working on and where they have had difficulty. One interesting difference is that instead of herding cats, stakeholders are categorized as 'pigs and chickens.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_%28development%29#Meetings

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Tue, 2010-10-19 16:50

Brylie, thanks for mentioning and linking to Agile Software Development, I totally agree its relevant to what Joe was/is trying to accomplish. I think Joe as ScrumMaster and his fellow pigs could benefit greatly from a regular short scrum. It would be ideal, especially for the peragogical direction he wants to head in with DIY Math, as everyone keeps everyone else up to speed on what they're doing, where they need help and then there's peer pressure for motivation keep studying/learning, which can be hard to find in open-ended courses.

marjorie  king's picture
marjorie king
Sat, 2010-10-23 18:19

Joe: I liked your idea for activities: asking the student's questions. Why don't you add the question: Tell us something that you would like to learn about. Thanks, Dr. King

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Wed, 2010-10-06 20:11

I won't repost it here, but I decided that the DIY Math course is effectively over (even though the mailing list will remain open for discussion). Here is a link to my post-mortem analysis of the course:

http://groups.google.com/group/diy-math/t/5fcb82598445cd54

I'd like to take up the question of "paragogy" here, and, indeed, it seems quite on-topic for *this* Collaborative Lesson Planning course.

Paragogy is different from both "pedagogy" and "andragogy" in that it is meant to take place between "equals". This is different from the child/slave pairing found in classical παιδαγωγέω and different from the oppressed/activist pairing found in e.g. Paulo Freire, and different from the seemingly androcentric (?) and allegedly self-directed learner from Malcolm Knowles's theory. It may be best to start a discussion of paragogy as a critique of andragogy. I'll attempt to do that somewhere, because this comment is already getting long.

In closing I want to mention that in my Post-Mortem Analysis for DIY Math, I said that *discussions* around "DIY Math" should continue, but perhaps not as a "course". This raises a broader question as to just when a "course" is or is not a good way to organise learning.

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Wed, 2010-10-06 21:45

OK, here is a quick writeup on "paragogy", basically defined in contrast with andragogy.

http://metameso.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/pilot

The next question would be: how to design a course or "lesson" that embodies paragogic principles.

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Fri, 2010-10-08 09:04

Thanks for sharing your ideas, Joe. Before I post a response, I want to clear up some terms I don't know for myself, first.

one explanation of paragogy
http://gathatoulie.blogspot.com/2010/10/paragogical-principles.html

merriam-websters def of pedagogy
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedagogy?show=0&t=1286520801

one explanation of andragogy (defined against pedagogy)
http://agelesslearner.com/intros/andragogy.html

The word [pedagogy] comes from the Greek παιδαγωγέω (via Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedagogy&oldid=387652688#Etymo...

merriam-websters def of androcentric
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/androcentric

Paulo Freire's Theoretial contributions from Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paulo_Freire&oldid=388683838#T...

malcolm knowles, informal adult education, self-direction and andragogy (infed)
http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-knowl.htm

Give me a day to digest these, and then I'll try to respond.

p.s. It's interesting what I was and was not able to find on M-W.

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Sat, 2010-10-09 05:35

Joe,

K. I like this idea of paragogy. I think how it differentiates from pedagogy as peers working together instead of master vs. apprentice is very appropriate for p2pu. I have made a change in this course from referring to participants as "students" to "members".

Para v. andragogy is a little less clear to me, but it seems that andragogy is more about a self-motivated individual learning independently in a room and paragogy is more about groups of motivated people learning together.

This course was designed with more of a peda/andra design, while DIY Math is more paragogy.

For what its worth, DIY math has had more participation than this course.

Back to the point, I think you were wrong to "[decide] that the DIY Math course is effectively over". By its very nature, a peragogical course would take longer to evolve and the results more ambiguous. Especially considering the majority of the peers are not familiar with this type of learning. You had some good ideas for improving the coure in your post-mortem analysis, as did those who responded.

Instead of considering what might work later, try to make it work now. I still think until absoulte peer equality is achieved a teacher has a role to shepard the others in a direction. Perhaps one way is asking students to give themselves one task to achieve each week.

They create the task based on what they want to learn, and you tweak those tasks/hold them accountable to help them progress. This also might fit into searching for the "how" of DIY Math you mentioned in your analysis.

p.s. I will now compose a response within DIY Math and post my own such assignment.

marjorie  king's picture
marjorie king
Sat, 2010-10-23 18:24

Joe: I liked your idea to change the name of the students. Why not call them "learning team members" or just "team members". Thanks, Dr. King

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Thu, 2010-10-14 11:08

Hi Charlie:

and thanks for pinging me :). I've been thinking about paragogy a lot over the last week, corresponding with various people, and I definitely owe you a response and update on where this is at for me.

I think your understanding of "paragogy versus andragogy" is very clear and it sums up the idea quite well. It could be fleshed out with various examples or expansions, but let's keep your statement, "andragogy is more about a self-motivated individual learning independently in a room and paragogy is more about groups of motivated people learning together" in mind as the core definition. Cool...

A couple of these extensions or expansions:

(1) Paragogy (etymologically, "leading aside") seems like a good way to describe learning that includes a lot of "break-out group" sort of stuff. Instead of there being one direction that everyone, or indeed anyone, is supposed to get to, paragogy is OK with, even endorses, non-linear thinking and sidetracking. This also works in the peer-guided sense of things, because the more I listen to different people, the more different directions come in to *play* (pun intended) -- even if I have one "main" direction in mind.

(2) I'm inclined to *question* just how self-motivated and independent people really can be under various circumstances. My initial critique of andragogy basically is about power. Educators over students, or circumstances over everyone. A "direction" can embody a powerful premise, and I think it is always helpful to be able to step aside -- and in a peer-based context, one does that a lot! This doesn't mean that there is any problem with there being teachers or facilitators! Rather, it's an invitation for these people to examine the way power works in their classrooms, schools, and neighborhoods, etc. -- people are often learning *outside* of classrooms and schools in a very peer-like manner. Something to think about.

Just one more quick example: I think it's cool that our conversation can flow back and forth between a couple of different course spaces as well as personal email. It seems like a positive example of how "leading aside" can produce learning.

Best,
Joe

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Tue, 2010-10-19 17:01

Joe,

Thanks for catching me back up. I think between this explanation and the one you link to below, I am on page with Paragogy. I am confused by your discussion of andragogy here, though. Could you re-phrase it and/or define it simply on Wikiversity like you did with Paragogy? I'm confused about the educators-students relationship, because andragogy seemed more independent?

Reading your [2] the thing that came to my mind is how some people help other people to make themselves feel better and that's selfish. Does that work somehow?

I also agree its cool how our conversation flows across multiple courses and emails and how it relates to leading aside. I'm trying to think of a good metaphor, but I'm coming up with surfing the same wave, but that doesn't really work, can you do better?

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Mon, 2010-10-18 22:11

I've re-summed-up paragogy at http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/User:Arided/Paragogy. I also have a quite lengthy analysis of the DIY Math course at http://metameso.org/~joe/docs/probation-report-draft.pdf if anyone wants to take a look at it. (From page 11 to page 21 of that document.)

I still need to make some actual *lesson plan*. I do have some ideas in mind based on my DIY Math experiences and I think I just need to bang them out. I'll plan to post this stuff on Wikiversity (at least the first drafts will go there).

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Tue, 2010-10-19 16:57

Joe, thanks for re-summing up paragogy as part of what you're doing on Wikiversity. My first comment would be to make sure you're giving credit to others for their ideas, unless of course, they are all yours. I'll try to check out what you wrote about DIY Math and comment, soon.

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Tue, 2010-10-19 21:23

Hi Charles: thanks for the suggestions! I added a couple more sections of background and some key references -- which massively improves the write-up, I feel! My ideas here are "original" only as variations on a theme. I could add another layer of background later as part of an "assessment" phase, but this seems good for an "introduction" phase.

marjorie  king's picture
marjorie king
Sat, 2010-10-23 18:28

Joe: I would love to see your lesson plan. You have some good ideas. Thanks. Dr. King

Charles Danoff's picture
Charles Danoff
Tue, 2010-10-26 18:52

Hi Joe:

I'd like to thank you for all your concerted contributions to this course. I never would have imagined this course would lead in a direction like this onto these cutting edge educational theory topics, but I am really happy you took it there.

You seem to have a good idea of paragogy, especially with your DIY Math pilot study as something to learn from. I made some modifications to your resource on Wikiversity, by adding templates to make it easy for other users to contextualize/understand what you're doing, a title for the first section, a refernce to Knowles's 5 principles, an interwiki link to Wikipedia about basho, a to-do section with comments of your own from this journal and suggestions from others and a cf. section to other writings of yours on the topic. Basically, I wanted to centralize the work I've seen of yours on this topic from here and your own websites into the central Wikiversity resource, while making it slightly easier for someone new to come to the page and figure out what's happening. You can see the work here: http://en.wikiversity.org/w/index.php?title=User:Arided/Paragogy&oldid=6... feel free to reverse the changes if they aren't helpful, or in tune with what you imagined for the resource.

Keep fighting the good fight and I look forward to hopefully continuing to collaborate down the road.

Joe Corneli's picture
Joe Corneli
Tue, 2010-10-26 20:44

Thanks for the *super* :) helpful wikignoming! I too am thinking about "next steps" for paragogy, and it's good to have all the old TODO items in one place to spur me on. Oh, and it was fun to get some real-time interaction going the other day! I hope we can chat more soon...