Prototyping (the) Innovation Ecology

This was the basic question asked at the chat session 15 May ... here is the (unedited) chat transcript:

----- start chat -----
You changed the topic to "your innovation system".
[17:55] sebastien_vignea joined the chat room.
[17:55] sebastien_vignea: hi
[17:55] trox: Hi Seb, good to see you
[17:56] sebastien_vignea: good to see you too
[17:56] sebastien_vignea: should we wait to see if more people are coming?
[17:56] sebastien_vignea: (I am a little early)
[17:56] trox: yes, I think so ...
[17:56] trox: but if you would like to discuss anything right away, feel free
[17:56] sebastien_vignea: ok
[17:57] sebastien_vignea: thank you for answering to my comments
[17:57] sebastien_vignea: and sorry for not having time to reply yet
[17:57] sebastien_vignea: I had a busy week...
[17:57] trox: we're all much too busy, I guess
[17:58] sebastien_vignea: but you I appreciated you comments and will try to reply meaningfully
[17:58] sebastien_vignea: are you recording in any way this chat?
[17:59] trox: excellent -- probably these forum type discussions are the most fruitful discussions
[17:59] trox: yes, my chat client should be writing a log file
[17:59] sebastien_vignea: it may be useful to post the chat script in the forum
[18:00] sebastien_vignea: that may be incentive for further discussion and bringing more people to the chat
[18:00] trox: that's what I plan to do -- it has been quiet recently
[18:00] sebastien_vignea: great!
[18:01] trox: Do you have anything specific you'd like to address today?
[18:02] CGA joined the chat room.
[18:03] trox: hi there, CGA
[18:03] CGA: hi
[18:03] sebastien_vignea: I think, after the chat, we should have a clear plan of what will be the objectives of the course in the next weeks, week by week
[18:03] sebastien_vignea: hi CGA
[18:04] CGA: hi sebastien
[18:04] sebastien_vignea: and maybe how we will collect materials so that it can be reused in this course or outside of the course
[18:06] trox: Yes, Sebastien, these should be the results of today ... and probably we should discuss if it would make sense to extend the course for a couple of weeks because we should have had this discussion some 2 weeks ago ...
[18:06] sebastien_vignea: I agree
[18:08] CGA: excuse me if I don´t participate too much in the discussion, but since I am new at the course ...
[18:09] trox: @CGA -- so starting *now* would give you the opportunity to work through the whole thing ...
[18:09] trox: (although there is no "syllabus" as such where I would tell you -- we're here to discuss and learn together)
[18:10] CGA: may I explain which are my objetctives in relation to innovation ecology?
[18:11] trox: yeah, let's start with a short intro: who are you and why are you here ...!
[18:11] trox: do you want to start, CGA?
[18:12] CGA: ok!. I am a promoter of a non profit organization and we area about to start a fab lab in León, Spain
[18:12] trox: what do you do as promoter?
[18:14] CGA: We will provide the space and the money to buy the machines. The FabLab Manager will also belong to our organization
[18:14] trox: how does that relate to the "innovation ecology" topic?
[18:15] sebastien_vignea: that brings back to our discussion about "investors" http://p2pu.org/general/node/28201/document/28206
[18:15] CGA: we will try to set some of the bussines models that you have identified: formation, renting of machines, ... but the innovation ecology business model that you suggested in your paper ... i found it very appealing
[18:16] trox: that's interesting ... maybe we can talk about the investors issue later on
[18:16] CGA: In a fab lab meets a lot of different people and organizations on a local scale ...
[18:16] sebastien_vignea: sure
[18:17] trox: Sebastien, could you give some background about you?
[18:17] sebastien_vignea: I am a post-doc in biology; but I also have interest in finding more efficient ways to promote innovation, including in academia (as I am sort of frustated by the way it goes now)
[18:17] sebastien_vignea: more specifically, I work in genetics and epigenetics
[18:18] CGA: since they are also conected thanks to the FB network, there is a chance of putting together people and organizations on a global scale
[18:18] trox: Sebastien, thanks for that;
[18:19] trox: CGA: let's come to the international network in a sec
[18:19] trox: let me just make an observation here
[18:19] trox: we're all coming from very varied backgrounds
[18:20] trox: another participant (who is not here right now) comes from banking and does market analysis as a day job
[18:20] trox: so the really difficult bit in this course will be to constantly switch between the practical application of each of you and finding the common ground in the abstract layer
[18:21] trox: @Sebastien: could you explain, why you are interested in innovation ecology, please
[18:23] sebastien_vignea: academia would be an ovious place to develop a real innovation ecology; but yet I feel it is quite fragmented and the collaboration process in academia is often inefficient and source of frustation
[18:23] sebastien_vignea: I think this is mostly a result of how the research system is structured
[18:24] sebastien_vignea: and I think a different organization could lead to more innovation
[18:24] sebastien_vignea: (as well to more happiness for reseacher)
[18:25] trox: so you're mentioning a few important elements I feel an innovation ecology should have
[18:25] sebastien_vignea: you can see the problem and possible solutions from the top down, or from bottom up
[18:25] trox: collaboration, cross-organisation (if I understand you correctly), fun, top-down and bottom-up
[18:25] CGA: do you know freelancer.com?
[18:25] sebastien_vignea: no
[18:26] trox: I'm aware of it, but not using it
[18:26] sebastien_vignea: I mean, I don't know freelancer.com
[18:26] sebastien_vignea: @trox yes, you understand correctly
[18:27] trox: freelancer.com is a site where you can post projects and try to find people from all over the world to help you work on them
[18:27] trox: right? CGA?
[18:27] CGA: yes, that right
[18:27] trox: so how do you think this fits into the innovation ecology discussion?
[18:28] CGA: there are some people (the freelancers) who have their profile on the site, and you can hire them in other to complete your project
[18:28] sebastien_vignea: is it only a person to person relationshoup, with predefined roles for each
[18:29] sebastien_vignea: or can there be innovation groups?
[18:29] CGA: yes, it is p2p
[18:29] sebastien_vignea: relationship*
[18:30] CGA: but the site gives some value to the relationship, for example the payements are made hru the site, not directly
[18:31] CGA: (besides, you find the freelancers in the site, and the freelancers find their custumers)
[18:31] sebastien_vignea: so the ecology aspect comes from p2p + reputation building through the site...?
[18:31] trox: I think it brings two elements that might be useful for the ecology: (1) the p2p aspect (with profiles, projects, reputation, etc.); and (2) the online platform that allows searching for and finding people distributed/asynchronous
[18:32] CGA: thats right
[18:32] trox: there are other platforms that work slightly differently -- I think of yahoo answers, for instance
[18:33] CGA: yes, there are some other platforms
[18:33] CGA: let me develop this idea a bit
[18:34] CGA: in a fab lab, you can build up a profile data base of all the people and organizations that come to the fab: who they are, what they are interested in, what are theis key competences
[18:35] CGA: besides, it is a place where people also come to do their projects, sometimes needing help
[18:35] CGA: the fab lab people might help you with the digital fabrication tasks, but no more
[18:37] CGA: if the fab has built a platform like that, they might put you in contat with the people who could help you. If the platform is a network one, they can put you in contact with people on a global scale
[18:38] CGA: if you are a researcher, you could also find proyects to work with in that platform
[18:38] CGA: (end)
[18:38] trox: @CGA -- I can see that, this platform could become an instrument to "link" people.
[18:38] trox: @Sebastien: could you react
[18:38] sebastien_vignea: That's a good point: I think a bigger challenge is to organize collaborations with more than 2 people collaborating on a project - apart from open-source softwares and some wikis (e.g. wikipedia), I am not sure there is a good information management system to manage it
[18:38] trox: @Seb -- if you look at academia ... where are the good examples?
[18:39] CGA: thats right, but the platform should also provide value (as freelancer) by making the p2p relationship "more serious"
[18:40] sebastien_vignea: the classical way a collaboratin is set is: PI (Principal Investigators = lab director) talking to each other and deciding for their lab members to initiate a collaboration
[18:40] CGA: it is not only a link between A and B, who might not know each other, it is link between A and B facilitaded by C, who should have some closer bonds to A and B
[18:41] sebastien_vignea: there is little way for non-PI to set-up a collaboration on their own
[18:41] trox: @CGA: this is a kind of referring people ... we will have to investigate this through the course
[18:42] trox: @Sebastien -- academia is driven by the powerful and their ambitions, right?
[18:43] sebastien_vignea: academia is driven by many factors... but there is definitively an issue with how careers and funding work in academia
[18:43] sebastien_vignea: which impacts on the innovation model
[18:44] sebastien_vignea: the other aspect, tightly connected, is intellectual property
[18:44] sebastien_vignea: if a result is not published in a journal, it is lost and forgotten
[18:44] trox: both hinder a more peer-to-peer / sharing way of doing things
[18:44] sebastien_vignea: (as well as the person who obtained it)
[18:45] sebastien_vignea: I would say more than half of useful results are lost and forgotten in the current system
[18:46] trox: that's probably right -- and of the other half, some might not get published in order to safeguard them for commercial purpose (I'm speculating)
[18:46] sebastien_vignea: because people move on to other project because of money or time constraints, and because they do not reach a publication-quality level, although they could still be useful as preliminary data to other researchers
[18:47] sebastien_vignea: I don't think there is a threat on the side of commercial use of the result; once a result is published, it is in the public domain anyway, and publication is the only "product" a researcher sells
[18:48] trox: in a way, this brings us back to the "investors" question ... that's probably one we could try to explore over the coming days and set as a topic for next week's chat
[18:48] sebastien_vignea: that's a good idea...
[18:48] trox: what do you think CGA?
[18:48] CGA: you need to link investors with researchers
[18:49] CGA: break the boundaries of current academia model
[18:49] sebastien_vignea: in which sense?
[18:50] CGA: I, as an investor, should be able to find the researcher capable and interested in colaborating with my project
[18:51] sebastien_vignea: I would agree on that in the case of applied research
[18:51] sebastien_vignea: but not for basic research
[18:52] trox: I think we probably would have to think of different types of investors: those who invest money to get money, those who invest time to get more time, those who invest engagement to get engaged
[18:52] sebastien_vignea: I actually think that, for basic research, mimicking the private model, with investors for each project, is detrimental
[18:53] trox: I would in a way agree with you, Sebastien
[18:53] CGA: and why is that
[18:53] sebastien_vignea: let me explain
[18:53] CGA: basic research needs money anyway
[18:53] sebastien_vignea: it has to do with the way basic research is conducted
[18:54] sebastien_vignea: think about an explorer who wants to go from A to B
[18:54] sebastien_vignea: and doesn't have a map
[18:55] sebastien_vignea: one way is to draw a line from A to B and to put all your effort going in that direction
[18:55] sebastien_vignea: this is essentially what is done in applied research
[18:56] sebastien_vignea: another way is to first draw a map encompassing A and B, so you can figure out the easiest path
[18:56] sebastien_vignea: (as there may be a mountain between A and B and you may want to go around)
[18:56] sebastien_vignea: this is more like basic researc
[18:58] sebastien_vignea: tighting investment to a project with a define goal (reaching may not always be the most efficient way
[18:58] sebastien_vignea: as researchers will keep hitting the same mountain
[18:59] CGA: ok, but you have to find a balance between getting results (now) and later
[18:59] sebastien_vignea: many times, it is better to provide ressources, invest in infrastructure, and give freedom to researchers to draw a map
[18:59] CGA: and this is somehow done today
[18:59] sebastien_vignea: I agree on that the funding has to be hybrid
[18:59] CGA: but probably hycherartical and non efficient way
[19:00] sebastien_vignea: for any given problem, it is not clear what will be the best approach
[19:00] sebastien_vignea: but the trend now is more towards an applied research type of funding
[19:00] trox: may I chime in --- this is a very interesting discussion, and I think the problems of *hybrid* and *hierarchical/non-hierarchical* will haunt us for a while
[19:01] sebastien_vignea: and the question of time
[19:01] trox: @seb: true -- Sadly, the 1 hour I've set for the chat is over now ...
[19:01] CGA: (excuse me for my written english)
[19:02] sebastien_vignea: excuse for mine too
[19:02] trox: I will make the transcript available on the forum -- but let me summarize the main questions we are left with:
[19:02] trox: (1) the investors -- what do they invest and what do they expect from the investment
[19:02] trox: (2) the money problem -- paying for results or for insight or for capacity building
[19:03] trox: (3) the hierarchy versus the network
[19:03] trox: ... and probably some more
[19:03] sebastien_vignea: that sounds like really good points to discuss further
[19:04] trox: I feel the "investor" issue is the most interesting one, and I'd like to continue on that one
[19:04] trox: so if you agree, we could meet in a weeks time, same time same place?
[19:04] sebastien_vignea: it is at least the central one, so sure we should start with this one
[19:05] sebastien_vignea: sure, let's meet next week, same time; and keep discussing on the forum
[19:05] trox: thx, Seb. CGA?
[19:06] trox: (I'll have to leave now but will leave the chat open for a while before I take the transcript)
[19:06] trox: thanks everybody for being with me today; and speak soon!
[19:07] sebastien_vignea: Thanks and speak to you soon!
[19:28] CGA left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[20:18] sebastien_vignea left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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